In this episode, we’re dipping into the world of kink, and BDSM - and specifically consent. With so much awful news, subjugation, disaster, political oppression and disempowerment, it is easy to brush past some of the day-to-day tools we can use to regain power. In this episode, we explore the framework of consent, applied beyond the kink world, with kink-trainer and activist L.T. We’ll talk about boundary setting, renegotiation, clear communication, power dynamics in npos and more. So buckle up and get ready for juicy, beautiful content. “..we know we have a culture that is at best, murky around consent. None of us has ever lived in a consent culture, so we don’t know what to model it after, so we are all building this together.”
Practicing consent is a powerful tool. Here are links for content mentioned in the show (and sign up for our mailing list?):
Definitions:
References: This episode doesn’t have references to link to inasmuch as it has some great examples and conversations to really listen in to. Themes like...
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L.T.:
We know we have a culture that is at best murky around consent, but none of us have ever lived in a consent culture. We don't know what they modeled it after. We are all building this together.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
This is Michelle Shireen Muri, your host and fellow traveler on the ethical rainmaker, a podcast exploring topics that we don't often visit in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors including the places that we can step into our power to make change or step out of the way.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
In this episode, we're dipping into the world of kink and BDSM. Specifically, we're going to talk about consent today. And I can hear that little hesitation. Why are we talking about sex and consent when we should be talking about things like racism, white supremacy? We should be talking about the forced hysterectomies happening in the ICE detention centers, threats to a fair election, the loss of US Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg and what that means, the largest fires in history on the West Coast and what that means. And, of course, the hurricanes on the East Coast too.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
There is so much going on right now. It is hard to think about frameworks like consent. But consent, it plays a major role in almost everything that's happening right now. Lessons and consent from the kink world can be brought to bear on most aspects of life and relationships from daily applications like the way we order our coffee, to dealing with family members, to setting meetings and larger applications like how agreements between institutions are made or how our relationships in the nonprofit sector are negotiated and, of course, how power affects us all.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
We have a lot to learn in our sector about power dynamics, about communication, about centering community. Today, we're going to use some of the concepts of consent in those areas. There's no trigger warning. We won't get sexually explicit, but it does get juicy.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
When I think about these topics, I think that there's nobody better to learn from than my guest today, L.T. L.T. is a person with many identities. They are a radical pleasure-based sex educator, a kink trainer and a pro-dom based in New York. They're also a full-time professional advocate and activist working to transform the prison industrial complex. They challenge conventional views on sex, on gender, relationship structures as related to racial and social justice in their work.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Today, we're tapping into L.T.'s wisdom to explore the concept of consent and how we can apply it outside the bedroom to the important work we're doing out in the world. Welcome, L.T.
L.T.:
Hello. Thank you. Thank you for the great introduction there.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah. Of course. Usually, I would end our interview with questions about what shapes you, but I think in this instance for this episode, it's important for the context to explore that first. Between the time you were born and now, so many factors have shaped who you are and how you got to this place and the work you're doing. What would you say are the primary identities that you hold that inform your work in this arena?
L.T.:
Oh, yeah. That's a great question especially when you say from birth to now because I think through life for me, it's been a transformation and reconciling how I see myself with how the world sees me. The main identity is being a black person or African-American or however folks want to identify me by visual in the world because that's an identity that's given to you. It comes with a lot of expectations. It comes with a lot of challenges that you don't sign up for. It's not an identity that you choose from birth being in the United States.
L.T.:
Yeah. To be clear, being a black person in the US, that's something that's shaped a lot from the beginning. It's figuring out, okay, why do people have these thoughts about me? Why do people have these ideas about me? You're reconciling your identity with the identities that are already being projected upon you as a youth. That's a big one.
L.T.:
Then trying to figure out how to survive in a world that way. I'm trying to figure out what about myself. I can be authentic in a white supremacist society like what's going to be accepted. What's not going to be accepted? What natural desires do I have? What sorts of expression, personal self-expression would I like to have, is going to be punished by normal society. It's going to be punished by a white society depriving us of access.
L.T.:
That's the biggest one as long as I'm living in the US, that's always going to be the biggest identity regardless of what, I shouldn't say always, up to this point that's always been the biggest identity. No matter where I go, no matter what community I decide to explore, I'm always going to be a black person in America.
L.T.:
Until we see complete change on the way that we are in relationship with each other, until we remove white supremacy as the foundational culture in the USA, people will always notice it, and people will always struggle with their own biases. They will struggle with their own social conditioning around seeing someone who's black and in a body that I have.
L.T.:
That's a big part of why consent's important because we have the criminalization of black and brown bodies in the USA. You quickly learn to be careful on your movement, be careful not to look suspicious even though you don't have a choice, you don't have a lot of say in that. Sometimes, you're just suspicious because you're just there. You have that criminalized body.
L.T.:
As I start exploring my own identity, that's a big one. Always be black. Some of the other things that they're framing is just my interest in non-conventional, non-colonized ideas around sexuality, around sexual expression, sexual identity, sexual orientation and being able to reclaim that power. Reclaiming my own identity and power from white supremacy is closely tied to me reclaiming my power and identity over myself, how I choose to be... what pronouns I identify with, how I create relationships designing that around my own happiness and what works for me and what agreements work for me in the partners I choose to be with, and having that again not based around where the way the world would like it to be or the way the world just decides they want to see me live.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. Thank you. You mentioned consent. And I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind defining it for us.
L.T.:
Well, just the basic definition of consent, it is agreement to do something. It's multiple people making an agreement, maybe to do something or to not do something. Some people like to use word permission. Maybe a permissions for something to happen, but yeah, that's the basic definition, I would think, if people want to get into their Wikipedia style definitions.
L.T.:
If we look at consent as something that's living like a living idea that we're constantly building on, you want to think about consent as informed consent, unanimous consents. When we think about things being consensual, having unanimous consent around, it means that we're not going to make changes to agreements we make with people without them being informed, without them being excited and enthusiastic about it.
L.T.:
We're not going to center our own pleasure and desires in those agreements. We're not going to coerce people to doing things that only are beneficial to us. I think consent in this basic definition, which is what I gave, doesn't take into account the inequalities that we have in our societies when it comes to the power dynamics whether it's class, whether it's race, whether it's gender, expression gender identity, or sexual orientation. It could just be where you live. We need to think about consent as a way to also reduce harm.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Got it. Thank you. That's really broad, and I appreciate that expanded definition. I'm Michelle Shireen Muri. The Ethical Rainmaker is brought to you by our consulting collective, Freedom Conspiracy. Visit freedom-conspiracy.com to take your Ethical fundraising to the next level, bring values aligned practices to your growth opportunities at hand.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Part of your work, the kink work, relies entirely on obtaining great consent, enthusiastic consent and communicating clearly with your partners and your students, and part of your work is to serve a population of people who don't have much autonomy as incarcerated folks which seems like a pretty intense comparison. What is your role in that system?
L.T.:
Well, I mean I've had a lot of different roles since I've started working towards transforming our justice system. Now, currently, I manage the spiritual and faith-based services for folks who are incarcerated in a New York City jail system. That role really right now, it's a busy time because we'll be leaning to our holidays. We lean into our high holidays. It's figuring out how we can provide service for services that will bring people comfort, that will bring people some sense of empowerment.
L.T.:
One of the things they feel like that can't be taken away from is their faith for those who are practicing. It may be though one or the few areas of refuge, comfort, and connection that folks may feel the people that they can't see communities that they're unable to fellowship with, whether it's emotional, whether it's mental, and sometimes even physical, just the physical practice of someone's faith can really bring them comfort in a situation where they've lost a lot of power, they've lost a lot of autonomy.
L.T.:
Many have suffered from being disempowered for many years. It's not a new position. For some people, it's a very new position. Their faith will comfort them if it will bring them through a very difficult and stressful time. Then, for others, it's not a new situation that they've been in, but maybe, it's a new opportunity for them to find some freedom and some liberation and lessen suffering.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Thank you. Thank you. Would you describe the part of your work that involves training, kink training?
L.T.:
Oh yeah. That's another area of healing. I look at all my work is helping people find a pathway to healing, finding a pathway to liberation from some oppression or from some hardship healing from trauma. Working as a kink trainer, one, it's an opportunity to explore things that I enjoy, things that have brought me pleasure, the things that have helped me find healing, things that have helped me learn a lot of not necessarily things that I didn't know, but deepened my relationship with them and the things I'm speaking about are empathy and consideration, communication, deepening my communication and really, really being able to tend to other folk's needs and learning how to ask for people to tend to mine.
L.T.:
That's a really healing experience for me personally because for many, many points in my life, I was afraid to ask for things that I need or afraid to speak up for things that I want. It's always still a process, but it's definitely a lot better now because I was worried about experiencing loss. I was worrying about not having consistent people in my life.
L.T.:
My attachment style or my attachment experiences didn't inspire me or allow me to feel comfortable letting walls down or not just not building walls in the first place. Being able to exploit kink where people are taking on different roles like if I'm the person who's in the top position or the dominant position, you may have someone who's serving a service position.
L.T.:
That person is showing... They're getting a lot of gratification and joy and pleasure out of serving someone. They want to know what you want. That can be an opportunity for you to get a lot of practice doing that in a situation that's controlled. It's negotiated. You have consent around it. As a kink trainer, I get a chance to learn a lot about their own experiences and what people have gone through.
L.T.:
It also helped me to understand that some of the experiences I had that I felt were negative or traumatizing or just not feeling like I had a community, I realized I wasn't alone. It was a lot of people who were exploring different ideas of pleasure, different ideas on sexuality. We're able to come together tying it into activist work, tying it into community and mutual aid work when we realize we aren't alone, when we realize we are a community of people who are being affected by something, some outside force.
L.T.:
Whether that is governmental, whether that is environmental, we understand that we do have power in collective unity. Then working together, we have an opportunity to make changes and get things done.
L.T.:
I think the kink community has a lot to offer. As a trainer, I get to learn a lot about other folk's pleasure.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. Thank you. We're talking about the topic of consent with L.T., a kink trainer, pro-dom and prison reform advocate right now on the Ethical Rainmaker. Do you love the topics we're bringing you? The best way you can support this pod is by subscribing, sharing it with your colleagues and contributing on our brand new Patreon page. Thank you so much to our first three donors, Farrah, Becca and Alex. Thank you. Learn more and join them at theethicalrainmaker.com.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
As someone who works in that space, how do you define having beautiful solid relationships? We need the consent of those that we choose to collaborate with. What does it take to be in a solid consensual relationship of any kind?
L.T.:
Yeah. In addition to be being a kink trainer, I do a lot of work around relationships and communication and building consent in our relationships and relationship agreements. Yeah. People want to know what can I do to be happy or just how do we create a happy relationship.
L.T.:
I think it always sounds cliché, but creating a happy relationship with ourselves is important. It doesn't mean that you have to be in complete harmony in order to start relationships with others, but just like building our relationship with others takes time. It takes dedication.
L.T.:
We have to spend the same amount of that with ourselves. You're always in multiple relationships because you're always in a relationship with yourself and seeing how you're responding and seeing what activates you when you're interacting with others and interrogating that and being honest.
L.T.:
One of the real good things is when we think about building healthy relationships is coming into it with designing an agreement that works for the people and not something out of just familiarity, not creating relationships that go by some unsaid, underwritten rules that we may not share, we may not share for a lot of reasons.
L.T.:
We want to be open and explicit or, I should say not necessarily explicit, but open... What I like to tell people is be precise in language. And being precise in language doesn't mean you know the right thing to say. Sometimes, it means saying I actually don't know what to say right now and I'm not sure how communicate... I want to communicate what's coming up for me. I'm not sure how to communicate my feelings any moment.
L.T.:
That's open communication. That's precise language. It's just the same thing when you're working in professional settings and people will tell you like, "Just say you don't know." It's better to tell people like, "Yeah. I don't know if she have that answer right now, but I'm going to go and try to see if I can figure it out."
L.T.:
That's important. I think being self-aware about what we desire, self-aware about what we don't know, and self-aware about what struggles we're having and realizing, hey, maybe sometimes I'm getting frustrated with someone, but it's not anything they've actually done or maybe something that they've done really isn't the cause of it.
L.T.:
It may be a different experience that I've had. Maybe the human condition of living in this world is going through trauma. And trauma exists in so many different ways, large, small, however you want to measure it or not measure it. The best thing to do is not measure it and realize that some experiences will imprint on us whether we're conscious or unconscious of them.
L.T.:
a dedication to communication is important, not to be perfect out the gate, but be dedicated to improving communication with partners.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. It sounds like a lot of this applies to the work that we do in the nonprofit world. To explore that a little bit, what I'm hearing and I would encourage the listener to think about these concepts and apply them to some of the difficult relationships you might have in the realm that you work in or that you're participating in, in the nonprofit landscape, I see a lot of places where consent isn't given and disempowering damaging dynamics play out in the nonprofit and philanthropy realm.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
In a basic scenario, for example, maybe I think we have an understanding with me as a non-profit with a funder or me as a development director or ED with a program officer and maybe we think we have a shared understanding I do this amazing work here at this organization and you're funding it, and the reports are explicit, et cetera.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
But then, one person has more power, typically the funder. Sometimes, that's wielded. That power exploits the relationships in a way that leaves either the non-profit worker or the organization stunned, feeling powerless, maybe violated, maybe feeling used, maybe feeling disrespected, like, "I thought we had the same understanding in this relationship. Then, you did some unexpected shit, and that hurt, and I don't trust you anymore."
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I see it happen all the time both within non-profits interpersonally with staff. I've seen it with board dynamics and staff dynamics, a lot of lack of consent there over who has power about who's making decisions on whose behalf. We definitely see it a lot in the relationship between funders, philanthropists, and the nonprofits they're trying to serve.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Of course, we see it in the communities that we say that we're serving when we're doing non-profit work, but we may not have actually the consent of the community or the blessing from the community to be doing that work where we may not be doing that work in a way that is relevant or respectful. So many parallels here for us in the non-profit sector.
L.T.:
Yeah. Absolutely. All my experiences inform the other. All my work informs my other work. I use these principles regardless of the arena that I'm in, regardless of the type of community that I'm working with. It doesn't have to be something sexual. It doesn't always have to be something relationship-focused.
L.T.:
What I mean by relationship doesn't have to be something that is romantically relationship-focused or intimate relationship focused, but it could be something professional relationship focused or working in a mutual aid collectives. That is a relationship that we're building and growing. These things always come up.
L.T.:
I want to try to give people some real world actionable items to do and things that you can start incorporating-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Please, that'd be wonderful.
L.T.:
... into our experience.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah. That'd be great.
L.T.:
One thing that's really important about, let's say, we're talking about kink and the workplace is proper expectation, setting proper expectations of what your relationship is going to be with someone. There's always going to be power dynamics as much as we want to have a horizontal style a relationship with folks and not a vertical hierarchical style relationship folks.
L.T.:
There's always going to be some power differences because people are going to take on different roles. Those roles help us reach our goals. Whether your role is to spank someone or your role is to manage the project management over something, you're taking on that leadership role, you're taking on maybe that prominent role or that decision-making position.
L.T.:
But in that, you have to understand that the folks that have decided to work with you because it's always a choice. I think that is a function of greed, gree we see in hyper-capitalism where people ascend to power, and they look at the people who work with them or report to them as people with less power.
L.T.:
The way I describe my style of topping or domming, and I describe it for everyone. This is how I learn it and accept it is that while I have all control, the person who is subbing has all the power. In my other work, it's the same thing. If I'm managing a team of folks, I have a lot of control over decision making, but these people are on the front lines. They're doing a lot of the work. They're interfacing with the communities we have to serve.
L.T.:
They have a lot of power because the decisions I make, they need to carry out in a way that's in integrity with what our agreement is. They need to carry out in a way that's going to serve people best. There's a lot of trust. Those folks are trusting me and saying, "I want to work with you. I'm going to agree to do this work because I'm passionate about it and I'm trusting you to make decisions." That put us in a places to succeed and vice versa. I'm trusting them as well.
L.T.:
I take that trust very seriously. It's the same if I'm in a scene or if I'm teaching or I'm working with people. I may be making a lot of decisions or I may be in a position of… I struggle just saying the word authority because maybe I have a problem with the idea of authority, but-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Many of us do.
L.T.:
Yeah. Well, I don't like hierarchies. I don't like hierarchies in any setting, to be honest with you, but if I'm leading a workshop, if I'm leading a session, if I'm leading a program and teaching people, those folks are being vulnerable. They're inviting me into a very intimate part of their lives, and they're trusting that I'm not going to take advantage of that. They're trusting that I am going to respect their boundaries. They're trusting that I'm going to put their needs in a position where it could be honored.
L.T.:
I'm not going to just push their needs aside, push how they feel aside just to serve myself. People aren't disposable. That's important too. You've come into an environment. You want to again set the expectation. This is what I expect from our relationship as a manager. This is what I expect from my relationship as a donor with your organization. This is what I expect from our relationship as someone who's phone banking.
L.T.:
I'm going to be doing phone banking. I'm expecting that when I get here, I can access the bathroom. I can have coffee when I need to. We're setting our expectation or you may say, "We all negotiate." It's negotiating. There's a power dynamic. As someone who's leading an organization and you're bringing new people on, new people are negotiating with you. They don't have a lot of power with an organization, but they're saying, "Hey, I need to be out of here by this time because I have to go to school." That's a negotiation.
L.T.:
Once you make that agreement, we need to find ways to honor that agreement, not break that agreement because we have power. That's an important thing when someone is leading a program, leading a class, leading an organization. Don't look at ways where you can just because you have power, you believe that you have power to change agreements as you see fit because then that is not consensual.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right.
L.T.:
That is a non-consensual change of an agreement. If you're doing that, you should call what it is. You should say, "Hey, listen. I know you're not consenting to me changing this agreement, but I'm changing it." Right?
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right.
L.T.:
Then, that person can opt out if they need to, but people wield the power of scarcity and necessity to keep people in those situations. We don't want to abuse folks. That's not leading if you're in kink. That's not domming or topping. That's abuse. I don't want to say-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right.
L.T.:
... Someone says what's really great about being in a consensual ethical if you want to use that word or responsible which I like a lot better, if you want to be in an area where you're practicing responsible kink, you're negotiating where scene goes. We're negotiating what we're going to practice and what we're going to teach. If I have a class set up around sensation play or set up around [inaudible 00:27:53], and you show up and I'm teaching people how to cook, you're like, "Hey, well, that's not the expectation I had."
L.T.:
I've already violated expectation. Then at the beginning of the class, I didn't even negotiate that I'm going to switch and talk about cooking, so am I even negotiating that? If we're going to have changes, we need to be fluid and negotiate those changes.
L.T.:
Now, of course, it can be somewhat… Write these things down. Write down your expectations for people serving in different roles within your organization that you're going to be working with. That's whether you're leading or you're in a position where maybe your role's a little smaller. Write down what your expectations are from that organization with you. Then, in that way, you can refer to it.
L.T.:
That way, you can make an adjustments because the adjustment period is going to come during the negotiation. Every party should be writing down expectations of what they feel like we should go in a direction.
L.T.:
Second would be the negotiation phase where we're sharing our expectations and our desires and our interests and where we want to see this to go. Now, during that negotiation phase, we need to be clear about what our boundaries are. Some boundaries are hard like hard no boundaries. Other boundaries are going to be soft. In consent, yes is yes. No is no. Maybe is a no right. Maybe doesn't mean no forever, but it's no in the moment. Just as yes doesn't mean forever, and no doesn't mean forever.
L.T.:
These things are fluid. We want to check back in with people. Then, that way, you're showing folks even with the power dynamic that maybe you wield more power than them. You're showing them that you care about their work. You're showing them that there's a value in the time and energy that they invest in it.
L.T.:
You're also giving them an opportunity to opt in or opt out because that doesn't mean that you can't find your direction, but maybe people have served... They've gotten what they needed out of this project. Now, that is shifting, they're looking to make a shift as well.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I had this experience recently actually where a funder I recently worked with that gave us a lot of money for a project asked a couple of us from the project to speak at an event that they said would offer an honorarium. What we realized late, really late in the game is that we had said yes to an honorarium, but we hadn't actually negotiated our normal speaking fees.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Now, Chuck, in the last episode, talks about community as unpaid consultants. We realized that we were actually going to be doing them a favor in doing so and not going by our original contract which did not have speaking engagements negotiated in it. We approached them and talked to them about renegotiating the contract even though it was the 11th hour, and we said we'd do it either way. They worked with us. It was great. It was a good learning experience for all of us and renegotiation.
L.T.:
Right. When we do this from a point of consent and we do this from a point where we're caring about people's lives and not just centering our own needs, then, it can be much more of a amicable decision to move on. It can be something you honor which is the other part of consent is hearing no. We need to be able to process hearing no and understand that person is making that decision for them.
L.T.:
They're saying yes to their own interests, desires, and goals. That's how I think organizations will be strong. They're strong because you build a reputation of caring for the people that you work with. That will always attract talent. It will always allow you to reshape your agreements with people.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Well, this is incredible information for all of us and also to just hear and re-hear and re-hear and apply it to the different places in our lives where we can build better relationships and really build the world that we want to see in the environments that we want to be in, the partnerships we want to be in. We're talking with L.T., a New York-based prison reform advocate, kink trainer and pro-dom right now on the Ethical Rainmaker.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
You can learn more about L.T.'s body of work and upcoming workshops at linktree/lordofthunderlt or you can find a link in our show notes at the ethicalrainmaker.com. As you listen to the rest of this episode, see where you can identify yourself in these examples.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
There's just time for one more question which I know that our listeners are dying to know which is in the nonprofit space, there are a lot of relationships that already exist where there's been a one-up position, that vertical relationship, let's say, especially with a funder or especially with a donor where inappropriate behavior is happening, whether that inappropriate behavior is violation of boundaries like 25% at least of female identifying people experience sexual harassment in the sector and at least 10% of male identifying people.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I'm sure the numbers are higher if we were to take a true poll. There are other issues like how whiteness is centered. We really assume that something that one white donor agreed to in their relationship with an organization is something that all white donors agreed to or the people of color donors or just other folks in general would agree to.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I see us always centering whiteness. There are other issues like that happen where we have relationships that need adjustment. Maybe, it's a little more simple than that. Maybe, it's that the funder has set expectations at the beginning.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
We'd love one report at the end of the year when you're done with this funding cycle, but then in the middle of it, they're asking for much more or they're asking for a special seat or like to buy them a table at your event or we just see all kinds of stuff like this in the nonprofit sector and fundraising and philanthropy and, of course, in every area of our lives, but when we have relationships that are already set up where that power dynamic has been in play and that relationship and the unspoken or maybe sometimes spoken or maybe sometimes written down rules are being violated. What is your advice for those of us that need to start confronting those relationships and setting new rules?
L.T.:
Yeah. That's great. That's a really hearty question. But I'm happy that we're going into that. First thing, I'll tighten myself slightly. When we started talking about identity shifting and reconciling your own identity, so as someone who was assigned a male at birth, but does not identify with a binary gender, as someone who was socialized to believe heterosexuality was the norm or the only way that would be acceptable and who now identifies is queer.
L.T.:
I have long or established relationships that I needed to readjust, and I needed to speak to people about because maybe we interacted a certain way in the past, and that was their expectation. Now, I need to shift that expectation in order to keep myself safe, in order for myself to feel good, in order for me to be affirmed in our relationship. See, if we can maintain that relationship.
L.T.:
That's an important thing. If you're the person who's deciding that I'm going to shift this relationship or ask for something that's not agreed upon, that goes back to that understanding that we need to reopen our negotiation. If someone is changing your professional agreement on what their expectations are and what you agreed to, it's to remind them.
L.T.:
If someone tries to do something, they say, "Oh, hey I recognize that you have this new need. I read through your ask. I read through your proposal, whatever. But I just want to remind you that it's actually different from what our initial agreement is and it's actually different from the work that we've been doing, that we had all agreed upon doing.
L.T.:
I'm hearing that you have this new need. I think that would mean that we need to start talking about changing this agreement that we currently have because you may be open to those new ideas as long as the terms of the agreement change.
L.T.:
Maybe, that means more time for you. Maybe, that means less time for another client or another project. That has real consequences or I should say that has real effect. It's communicating that. That's different from our agreement. I want to remind I wanted to have a discussion about our prior agreement and what new agreement we can do as opposed to just adding on. We can't do that.
L.T.:
People will just keep adding on forever there'll be extra pickles, extra mayonnaise. It'll be a mess. It'll be a mess, right?
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right.
L.T.:
It's like, "This is how [crosstalk 00:37:31].
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. It often is. It often is a mess. That's the thing. It's like, "Yeah. I made this huge donation to your organization." No. I don't need anything. Then, it's like actually, but if I could have a table at that event that you're throwing and can you just throw in an extra little whatever for my VIP guest and then, like, "Well, how do you feel about going on a date with me?" Just like boundaries [crosstalk 00:37:55]. Yeah.
L.T.:
Yeah. That's an important thing too is discussing our boundaries. If I have a professional relationship with someone even in a sex industry, I have a professional relationship with someone, and whatever relationship that is does not mean that it escalates to a romantic or intimate relationship with someone. Regardless of how much time I spend with them, regardless of how friendly I am with them, it does not equal that.
L.T.:
It's important to establish that boundary immediately. If someone says, "Hey, what do you think about going on a date," a lot of people are worried, "Oh, I don't want to offend the client. I don't want to offend this person," whatever those things are. That is a function of a society that does not place consent as a foundation.
L.T.:
When I talk about consent, my program's like consent everywhere. There's consent in every situation even if I was going to reach behind someone to grab a stapler. I will say to my co-worker or the person in the room, I'll say, "Oh, hey so-and-so, I'm just going to reach behind you and grab the stapler unless you're comfortable passing it to me."
L.T.:
I'm pretty much just letting that person know that I respect their space and that they can help me, they cannot help me, that they have a say in what goes on in their space, and I'm not just taking up space.
L.T.:
If someone says, "Oh, hey, this was an awesome event. You did a great job. How would you like to go out for drinks together sometime or I really like to take you to dinner?" You would say, "Oh, I don't have dinner with clients. I don't have intimate relationships with clients." I think no is a complete sentence.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Now, for the listener, dinner is just one example. For many of us, having dinner is actually a normal part of our jobs, but it doesn't have to be. That's the point.
L.T.:
It's not just saying no to something, but also thinking about is there a way that I could do this in a way that I feel comfortable with and letting them know this is why. I feel comfortable doing it in this way because I want this to be professional, and I want to have a solid professional relationship with the person. It's important to us to talk about consent openly and use consent. Some people don't know what consent means.
L.T.:
They don't know that they need to ask my permission to discuss certain things. Well, I don't just start talking about all kind of stuff. I don't come back from some place, oh, guess what I did with so and so. We walked all these Pomeranians down the street. I will ask people if they're comfortable talking about things. I would ask people if they're comfortable hearing a story.
L.T.:
The same thing with people. We know we have a culture that is at best murky around consent, but none of us have ever lived in a consent culture. We don't know what they modeled it after. We are all building this together.
L.T.:
If someone violates your consent, hard stop, set your boundary say, "Oh, hey, sorry. Dinners aren't part of my agreement. I never made an agreement to hang out at the party."
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Hearing about Pomeranians is not something I want to hear about. Please, keep that story to yourself.
L.T.:
Yeah. Well, yeah. You could say, "I don't like to talk about Pomeranians. I don't want to talk about Pomeranians. I would appreciate if we didn't discuss that or you wouldn't discuss Pomeranians with me. Go see Michelle because Michelle has Pomeranian pictures," but I'm kidding because that is also not consent. It's making assumptions like assumptions that because someone has pictures of Pomeranians at the desk, they want to hear about you talk about Pomeranians.
L.T.:
We've all experienced that. You may have something on your desk. You may identify a certain way. It doesn't mean that I always want to talk about it. It's like, "Oh, yeah. I'm black, but that doesn't mean I want to answer your black questions for the day of the week, or I'm a woman or I'm from this country. Again, even those people, we need to ask consent to say, "Hey, I see you have pictures of Pomeranians. Would you be up to having a conversation about Pomeranians? I have some questions about the breed." The person's like, "Fuck off. I have a Zoom call."
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Totally.
L.T.:
You're funding programs. You're not buying people. That's important too for people to understand.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
So true. Thank you for saying that. So true. You're not buying the people. As a funder, as a foundation, you don't actually get to buy the people that is so, so important. Thank you for saying that. It's true. Whether those people that you think you're buying are tokenized clients of a non-profit organization, whether they're the handsome, charming, executive director, you actually don't have a right to those people just because you have this possibly explicit hopefully negotiated agreement that you've agreed to. Thank you for mentioning that piece too.
L.T.:
Yeah. No one's ever agreed to sell themselves for people who are unaware of sex work because sex work is work. Sex workers do not sell themselves either. That's another misnomer, shaming, dehumanizing thing. None of us are selling ourselves. What we are doing in every line of work that we choose to engage in is we are trading services for compensation.
L.T.:
We're negotiating services for compensation. That's an agreement. We all make an agreement to a certain part. It doesn't go beyond that. You work. It doesn't mean that you're working with someone to serve a population of people without homes that you're going to go, and they're donating money or they're running their organization that you're, "I'm going to come to your house and wash your car or I'm going to come to your house and clean your pool or watch your kids, or be here to entertain your sexual whims or desires or any of those things."
L.T.:
Everyone needs to understand that we've made an agreement. None of us sell ourselves. You're the person who has a financial power per se. You have the most financial leverage. People aren't for sale to you. You're never buying people. That's part of consent. This is to help the people who are listening and maybe it's just some work you need to do. It's a podcast, not a therapy session.
L.T.:
If you have those thoughts where you feel like you've brought someone because they're doing a job for you or they're doing a service or whatever it is, what you're actually doing, it's like holding someone hostage. I mean like the idea that you think you own this person or because you pay for something they have to do every and anything you ask them to do. You're not actually in integrity with an agreement or a relationship or a boss or a supervisor.
L.T.:
What you are doing is just perpetuating enslavement. You're perpetuating entrapment. You're perpetuating trafficking. You're basically trapping in people in a way that's not thought of in a sense. If those are the thoughts you have in your head, you definitely need to ask yourself, "Why do I think that by giving someone money or by giving someone directions that I have access to all that person's labor?"
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah. Right. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking about all of that. So powerful. I think with your consent, we'll see if we can't do another podcast to further unpack these issues because all of the things that we have talked about today, all the things that you have explained and the examples that you've given, we could make many episodes out of just to share the places where we can gain power back if we feel like we've lost it, the places we need to step out of the way, the relationships we need to re-examine, and just really, really again work to create the world and the environment that we want to create through these principles around consent, explicit consent.
L.T.:
Yeah. Absolutely. It's a consent and relationship agreements are ongoing conversations. This is an ongoing conversation. It's just part one or however it comes out. Yeah. Definitely. We need to keep building on these ideas.
L.T.:
There's never enough time for people to get it all in one shot. We got to be patient with ourselves. Yeah. Definitely. Let's do it sometime.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Oh, I love it. Thank you L.T. I know you to be an incredible human being who has really made the most effort to help all of us get to that place of autonomy and ultimately freedom personally within ourselves mentally within relationships with other people, within relationships with institutions. I am just so grateful for the work that you're doing in the world. Thank you so much for being here today.
L.T.:
Oh, thank you so much, Michelle. Thank you for creating this platform. You're doing the similar work bringing these concepts and bringing healing modalities to people. This is dope.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yes, it is. Thank you. Yes, it is. Thank you so much. That's it for this juicy edition of the Ethical Rainmaker. I'm Michelle Muri. Thank you so much for being with us on this journey Deeper into the World of Nonprofits and Ethical Fundraising. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so we can count you in.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
If you value these conversations and want to offer financial support, please, check out our new Patreon at the ethicalrainmaker.com. The Ethical Rainmaker is produced and edited in Seattle, Washington by Isaac Kaplan-Woolner with socials by Rachelle Pierce.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
We are sponsored by my consulting collective, Freedom Conspiracy which can be found at freedom.conspiracy.com. Special thank you so much to Mr. DC for letting us use this awesome song, Happier Now. That's it for the Ethical Rainmaker. Join us in two weeks.