Controversial. Polarizing. Divisive. Liz LeClair has gained a reputation for her famous call outs of both sexual assault and racism within the nonprofit world. In S3:E1, Michelle interviews this writer, fundraiser and badass who talks about calling out white fundraisers for their racism, taking responsibility for being part of the problem, and her experience speaking out about sexual harassment in the fundraising space, including cofounding the National Day of Conversation in Canada. “Every generation you either change and evolve or you become irrelevant.” You are going to love this episode.
Welcome to Season 3 of The Ethical Rainmaker a podcast that explores the world of inequity in nonprofits and philanthropy including where we should step into our power or step out of the way! It is part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost information, case studies and inspiration, to everyone in the third sector, and especially those who know or are learning that we’ve been complicit in upholding some problematic practices, and maybe some dishonestly but want to do better on this journey. If you like what you are listening to and want to support this work, find us here on Patreon or email us at hello@theethicalrainmaker.com to talk about sponsorship!
In this episode, Michelle talks with Liz LeClair a fundraiser and vocal advocate for human rights gender equality and social justice. We love Liz , who hails from Halifax, Nova Scotia, and we’re happy to have so many links/citations for you (and you can sign up for our mailing list here):
You can follow Liz LeClair on these platforms:
References and People:
A Note from Liz about Sexual Harassment and Sexualized Violence in the Charitable Sector: We are still working on what the National Day of Conversation will look like in 2022. We are looking at a more intersectional approach, but if you have Canadian listeners (or really anyone who is interested) this is still a good repository of information:
Liz’s Recommended Reading List (from Liz):
Liz LeClair:
“What I'm trying to do is speak to white people, as a white person to say, what are we doing? That's more the conversation. I can't say what the lived experiences are. I can only read about them and learn and listen, but I can tell other white people when we're behaving badly and doing wrong and doing harm. Because I've also done it.”
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Welcome to Season 3 of The Ethical Rainmaker. a podcast that explores the world of inequity in nonprofits and philanthropy including where we should step into our power or step out of the way. I’m your host and fellow traveler on this journey, Michelle Shireen Muri.
It is part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost information, case studies and inspiration to everyone in nonprofits and philanthropy, AKA the third sector - and this is especially for anyone who wants to do better on this journey.
Speaking of inspiration...
Liz LeClair seems to be one of the controversial names in the fundraising space. Why? Well, we’ll be asking her! We’re covering a couple of topics today you won’t want to miss and we’ll start with her background...
Liz is a vocal advocate for human rights, gender equality and social justice.
She is a contributing editor to The Charity Report - a new posting, though she’s been writing articles for years now, that awaken our sector to some of the injustices we perpetuate. She’s started a new community interest company, Sargasso Philanthropic CIC, focusing on equity work.
She’s the current chair of the Association of Fundraising Professionals Women's Impact Initiative. She sits on the board of CFRE International (which is a certification for fundraisers.) And she sits on the board of the African American Development Officers Network, -- as a white woman!
In the fall of 2019 Liz helped co-found the National Day of Conversation to highlight the issue of sexualized violence in fundraising. In 2020 and 2021, she’s been a fierce advocate for fundraisers of color, as we take fire for exposing injustices in our sector and promoting more equitable fundraising practices.
I consider her to be one of just a couple of white women who are not afraid to use their positional authority and voice to push for equity in a sea of silence from so many white folx in the sector. Liz hails from Halifax, Nova Scotia in Canada...
And we’ve been waiting to talk to her on the show... Liz, welcome to the Ethical Rainmaker.
Liz LeClair:
Thank you so much and it's always awkward to sit through an introduction.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
A lot of people feel that way...but Liz you’ve done so much to be an advocate for BIPOC folx in the nonprofit sector...
Liz LeClair:
I'm grateful that people see that and that I am doing that, I'm grateful that it's doing something or it is serving some purpose because I just think that there's this ... always this fear, whether it's the Me Too Movement and men saying, I don't want to say something in case I offend the women or I'm seem to be stepping in. It's the same with white people. I think there's an ingrained fear of not wanting to be talking over or stepping in with that white saviorism and I think it's hard, some people find it hard to figure out where their space is. So I'm always glad to hear that whatever I'm doing has actually been useful in some way, so...
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Well, I mean, I think it has and we'll talk more about it in a moment. I mean, some of us think useful, right, and powerful...and some people consider you to be controversial! I've heard words like polarizing, divisive and combative use when people are describing you. What is that about? What do you think makes you controversial?
Liz LeClair:
I think that I am controversial to certain segments of the fundraising sector. I think that the word controversial or polarizing gets used and referenced to me by a certain demographic within the sector, which tends to be at this point, people who are... I'll just be very honest, I've said it poorly in the past, sometimes on Twitter and I've apologized for that, but I think people who've made a living off of some of the systems that are being critiqued and they're very angry about it. I think they think because I am part of, or I've been a member of AFP, or that I sit on the board of CFRE that I should be defending them.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right.
Liz LeClair:
I think that there's a fear based reaction to it but also, I think ... it's funny, I've had a lot of critique, especially in my role as the chair of the Women's Impact Initiative, that I should not be so vocal, about things that are outside of the scope of that committee. Not that long ago, had ... and this one really stuck with me because every time I have this conversation, I bring it up. Someone that wrote basically that they were going to be glad when my turn was over because they were tired of listening to what I had to say. So yeah, I mean, there's definitely people out there that don't like what I'm doing and I've said this in the past, in some posts that I've written, I'm not really that concerned because they're not the people that I'm trying to reach.
Liz LeClair:
They're the ones that generally, for the most part are missing the whole point of the movement, the whole point of the change that's being asked to have happen and a really good current example is, unfortunately, sometimes people who are afraid of getting vaccinations. The more you try to convince them, the less they become convinced that you have their best interests at heart and I think that's a really, really extreme example, but I think that can play itself in other ways in society where people decide that they're on ... they have a defined idea. Then the more that you push them or try to convince them, the more defensive they become, and the worse it becomes. So it's kind of ... those people I'm not sure I would ever reach or if it's really worth trying...sometimes. It's a lot of energy.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. I think there's always an argument to be had around like, who is and isn't movable and where do we expend our energy when we are talking about issues that are important to our selves, right?
Liz LeClair:
Yeah, I mean, when it concerns me is when those people have decision making power.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right.
Liz LeClair:
And I do have a tendency to think that some of those people are very much still embedded in the organizations that I've referenced, that there are some lack of flexibility or unwillingness to see some of the critiques as helpful.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
Those people I mean, I do get concerned about them but at the same time, they're becoming increasingly irrelevant because there's a whole new swath of young fundraisers and people in social movements that are kind of bringing new ideas forward and like every generation, you either change and evolve or you become irrelevant. So eventually ... I hate to say this, eventually, some of that will switch and someone like me will eventually have people even younger saying, no, what you're saying isn't right, either.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Well, one of the things that you're vocal about, well, you've been vocal about, is community centric fundraising. So for folks who are listening and who haven't heard about it, if you're tuning into the podcast for the first time, community centric fundraising is a movement that values equity and social justice by prioritizing the community over individual organizations, recognizing the racist roots of nonprofits and philanthropy and fostering belonging, promoting holistic practices, really looking at ecosystems, whole ecosystems of services that we provide and things that are happening and mutual support for each other. I am a co-chair and co-founder of community centric fundraising and the content hub that was created in July 2020 and yet, when that community centric fundraising content hub was launched, we started taking a lot of fire in the form of hate mail, posts from haters and bitter white angry folks.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
And in spring 2021, we received some really bold, ugly critiques, centered in paternalism, racism and patriarchy from some of the biggest names in our fundraising practice. Liz, you saw this and not only did you go to bat on social media platforms, but you filed an ethics complaint against one particularly loud, angry person who launched a three week tirade against ECF, and you asked for his materials to be banned from the study, and our certification program, the CFRE. You also wrote a piece that personally moved me and so many other fundraisers I know called, "This is the Apology We Deserve," which was an open letter to the fundraising sector, and especially to folks of color in the sector. Liz, that was amazing. I will also say, because I was being personally attacked in some other arenas, Liz, you have sent me some help and some helpful advice and I appreciate you for that too. But do you want to talk more about spring 2021?
Liz LeClair:
I will just say, I just think the individual and the individuals that have been ... were doing what they did don't deserve to have any more airtime. There was a number of us that received an email from you that highlighted some of the posts that were happening. The vitriol and... I think I had missed some of it, but the more I read it, the more I dug into it, the more I looked into it, I was just really horrified by the people that we're friends with, this individual who I respect, I had respect for, at the time, who were saying nothing.
Liz LeClair:
What I realized was that I kept thinking somebody else is going to jump in, and then I realized that they weren't. So there was that moment that we all have when ... what's that sociological phenomenon, the bystander effect, where everyone thinks somebody else is going to jump in and everybody is secretly watching someone. I think it was in that scenario, someone is being murdered.
Liz LeClair:
I think, everyone thinks that somebody else is calling 911 and no one does anything because they're thinking somebody else is going to take care of it. I had this moment where I was like, "Well, I'm either doing this or I'm contributing to the harm that's happening and as I'm sure everyone witnessed, once I get really upset and angry, and frustrated, I think that I saw enough to know that it needed to stop and it needed to be dealt with as soon as possible. That is part of ... when we talk about why people think I'm controversial and polarizing. There are people that are beloved in the sector for a variety of reasons and they do harm, people think that they deserve forgiveness for what they've done and I know someone used the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
Liz LeClair:
But for me, that's not an exit, that there's no excuse for it. I think the people that say those things, have the privilege of not having these things affect them. So yeah, I took that on, I did all the things that you've talked about. Some of which I made public, which you're not supposed to do but what I did realize was if I didn't make it public that I was filing these complaints, no one would ever hear that they happened.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right.
Liz LeClair:
And I thought that the community that he harmed needed to know that that had happened. So I'm disappointed, I'm really disappointed and this is going to make a lot of people really angry but I'm really disappointed in some of the people that didn't speak up and have continued to stay silent about it and in fact have created, I think there's this little subculture now where it's like, "Well, we can't say anything because if we do then CCF people are going to go after us," and I think that in itself is a narrative that is unhelpful and contributes again to this kind of us versus them mentality and I'm really disappointed in quite a lot of them and I think they know it. I haven't heard from most of them. Those that I have, they've been really angry with me. BUt I'm happy to say to whoever is listening that I'm fine with that. To me, that's relationships and friendships or the so called professional relationships that I don't want to maintain because there's no integrity.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
This was, the incident we were referring to was an incident that happened in spring 2021, but it's like shit keeps going down and every time, you are there to address it. I mean, I was just talking to Mallory Mitchell at Black Visions in Minneapolis. Mallory was saying that she feels like she knows you because of your Twitter feed, which I also love and follow, but I think-
Liz LeClair:
Which is my brain flowing out in 240 characters or however many of those. I can't remember but yeah.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. But also, when there are people on Twitter or LinkedIn or articles, full articles that are written kind of decrying community centric fundraising as some kind of fad or some kind of idealistic vision that can't possibly come true or as basically a pipe dream, you know, also more explicitly folks who are belittling and making small and also devaluing and discrediting folks of color in our sector, you are there to handle it and you are definitely, in my eyes, the most prominent voice out there, kind of taking a look.
Liz LeClair:
Well, I mean, I brought this up when I first started talking about sexual harassment. There is an incredible woman here in Canada, Hadiya Roderique. She wrote this piece, it's sort of a first person experience or she kind of exposed the racism on Bay Street. She was a lawyer for the financial sector, and I think she was the only black woman in her entire law firm. And she was the keynote speaker... I would just like to do a shout out to Ann Rosenfield, who's with Hilborn and also was the chair of that ... I believe the chair that year for that conference. Ann has been a staunch advocate and upholds ... tries to support and uphold all the values that you're talking about that I believe in as well.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I'm sorry, what's Hilborn?
Liz LeClair:
Hilborn News in Canada is like a E-newsletter and they also do ... they publish as well and they are also ... I believe they're the publishers behind Collecting Courage as well, like they worked with Gail Picco in that group, on that piece.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
So Ann is phenomenal and she brought Hadiya as their keynote speaker and it was a really fascinating conversation. I was sitting in the audience and the thing that really stuck with me, is when she said, it's imperative for those people with privilege. It's not the responsibility of those who've already been marginalized, but the responsibility of those with privilege to speak up when they see injustice. That really cemented itself in my brain. And it doesn't come from a place of white saviorism, because I don't think I speak on behalf of communities of color. What I'm trying to do is speak to white people, as a white person to say, what are we doing? That's more the conversation. I can't say what the lived experiences are. I can only read about them and learn and listen, but I can tell other white people when we're behaving badly and doing wrong and doing harm.
Liz LeClair:
Because I've also done it. I think that's the other piece too. I think a lot of people ... there's some people out there that critique me often and say, "Well, you often talk about other people doing it, and you're not taking any responsibility." I 100%... I have been part of the problem and I'm sure at times, continue to be problematic, but at least I'm willing to own it and apologize and sit with the discomfort and then figure out how to do better.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That is part of the work, isn't it?
Liz LeClair:
It's hard.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
It is hard. I almost think there are 10 principles that we talk about in community centric fundraising, but I've been rethinking that and imagining that maybe we should add more principles, including one about how part of our work in the nonprofit sector is also as individuals needing to do that hard work of understanding where we make mistakes and also addressing it, knowing that it's okay. We don't have to be perfect. We just have to walk through and sit in that discomfort and process it and do better.
Liz LeClair:
Well, I think, again, every thing that I have learned about oppression has been through my own experience and my eyes were ... everything was expanded for me, as I started to do this advocacy work but my experience with oppression was coming forward to men that I worked with and worked for, and some women, and saying, "I had this individual, sexually harassed me, what are we going to do about it?" Hearing that, “yes but maybe you didn't hear properly, maybe” ... and it was my first time in my life where I was not getting the response that I thought was fair. As a white woman, there's a lot of things that you experience as a young woman, certainly around harassment and things like that, but I've lived a very privileged life. I've had access to education. My family has always been very supportive of me. I've been able to do a lot of things. That's why I'm in the nonprofit sector. I was able to make a choice to be here.
Liz LeClair:
That's, I think, a situation that a lot of white women or a quite a number of white people have found themselves in. This is ... for them, this is something that they can do because they have those privileges, and it was the first time I came up against the wall of somebody saying to me, "Yeah, that's happening but we don't want to deal with it, because it's going to be uncomfortable for us." And I know this sounds really naive but I think I had no concept up until that point in my life, of what it meant to tell someone the truth and then for them to say, "I hear you, but maybe you're not hearing it right or I hear you and we're not going to do anything about it." Then this whole veil got lifted off of my eyes… to the stuff that I had heard about which was the systemic issues, and I was like, "Oh, this is what people are talking about." I mean, I was in my late 30s.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right.
Liz LeClair:
How unbelievably privileged am I to have that been the first time in my life, where that ... was where I finally clued into this. Then, I thought, God ... and I thought about the things I had said to people and the ways that I'd contributed to this and it all starts to peel back and I think, we can choose to either witness it, acknowledge it and do something about it or we continue to be a part of the problem, and I have the privilege of being able to speak out about it.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
You are listening to The Ethical Rainmaker and I’m your host, Michelle Shireen Muri. Did you know The Ethical Rainmaker is now accepting sponsors? If you want to find out how to get your name and work out to our ever expanding community of like minded listeners, drop us a line at at hello@theethicalrainmaker.com. We’d love to have you. Today we are talking with Liz LeClair, a powerful advocate for social justice in the third sector. Liz has just become a contributing editor to The Charity Report, she is co-founder the National Day of Conversation across Canada, she’s a board member of the African American Development Officers organization, chair of the Association of Fundraising Professionals Women's Impact Initiative, board member of CFRE International, and co-founder of Sargasso Philanthropic CIC. SHe’s also someone who has really influenced me with her writing, and she’s been an incredible advocate for change in these last few years as Community Centric Fundraising takes off.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Speaking of speaking out about that particular issue you came on to the international scene, when you shed light on sexual harassment in the fundraising sector, through your own account of sexual assault by a prospective donor, which you published in January 2019 for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and then later, you chose to pursue legal action in a separate matter against the donor who had been sexually harassing you for four and a half years and you shared your experience of the many flaws in navigating the systems and sexual harassment legislation in Canada. I mean, again, in a global publication in our sector.
Liz LeClair:
Yup. So again, going back to that conference where Hadiya Roderique spoke, so that was kind of ... I think it was the fall of 2019 ... no, it was 2018. It was the fall of 2018, so we're in the throes of the Me Too Movement really at that point. And when we say the Me Too Movement, I mean, the celebrity version. I mean, must acknowledge, of course, that like many really important movements in history that a woman of color started Me Too, but it wasn't really until some celebrities and the Harvey Weinstein scandal kind of blew up and then that became the hashtag that other people started to take notice. But I think I had been sort of listening to the news and hearing these stories and really relating to what was happening and starting to have this realization that what had happened to me was not just part of my job, it was actually really wrong.
Liz LeClair:
Again, the social conditioning, that you're from a young age, you're taught to just shirk off, whatever the inappropriate touching or the inappropriate conversation or someone leaving their hand on your hip for too long or an older male donor making some inappropriate comment. It just always gets brushed off and I remember when I was younger, and I was managing a team in Victoria BC, I even joked to the girls that it was a little bit like glorified prostitution at times. So when you talk about me contributing to the problem, there's a good example. And I remember sitting in the conference, and there was these two young women in front of me who were at Humber in Toronto, which has a really great fundraising program. And someone at the closing plenary and the audience said, "What are we going to do about this? Is there anything we can do?" A lot of people were saying, “it's too hard. I don't know if we can ... what are we going to do, tell donors no?”
Liz LeClair:
I was watching these two young women and thinking, man, if this was my entrance to the profession, I would quit right away and find somewhere else to work and I thought, "Well, I have to explain somehow to the public into the sector, how serious this actually is." I went back to where ... I'm here in Halifax and I asked a friend of mine who works for the CBC if this is something people would read, and he said yeah. I was actually surprised how far it went. But I think, again, speaks to the fact that these conversations are happening behind closed doors. The whisper networks are not just in the entertainment industry. They're very strong in the nonprofit sector. I'd ask any woman in any city to tell you the top five people who you don't want to be alone with on a meeting. You know, they all have the same names and you can just look at the Chartered Institute of Fundraising and what's happened over there with those incredible women that have been battling that organization, which is like their version of AFP on just getting some men who are actually fellows in the institute, kicked out because they've been sexually harassing young women at conferences. It's been a debacle.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah about time, though. It's about time that it'd be addressed isn't it?
Liz LeClair:
Well, and it is and I think what's fascinating to me is, again, when we talk about systems, people always have this propensity to go ... and this all kind of comes full circle back to what we were talking about before. People always expect those who have already been victimized to name and shame, or identify those who are problematic and do something about it. I know that in the UK right now, there's a lot of people saying, "Well, we need to know who these men are." What it does is it takes the onus off organizations, leaders and generally, our organizations as a whole and the way that we operate to do better. It puts the onus back on the victim.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right.
Liz LeClair:
It does more harm, and I think it's the same around the stuff with community centric fundraising. I think when you wrote me that email, I was like, why should Michelle and these guys have to continue to have this fight, when it's damaging and toxic and traumatic? It mirrored so much of my experience around reporting sexual harassment. I know it's different but there are elements of this that are so eerily similar
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I believe that. Societally, here in the US, in Canada in the UK and I’m sure other countries...the target or victim is expected to take on additional burdens and those burdens can include being in a public spotlight - and critiqued by random anonymous or well-known armchair judges. Or having strangers to the situation “forgive” the offender without any repair being done with the target... Like it's not enough to be targeted or harassed already. And you, After all that you yourself have already been through - you wrote an apology…”
Liz LeClair:
Well, I mean, the apology that ... that apology was the one that I thought that I deserved and that everyone else needed to hear as well.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right, right.
Liz LeClair:
But it was also the one that I wanted people to give to you and to the members of community centric fundraising, or the people in the movement. I think it's funny. Like I said, with the veil lifting, you don't always see the horrible things that are happening, until you are trying to combat it. Then when you are in the middle of trying to help combat it or try and deal with it or try and advocate and you become the target of the same abuse? How community centric fundraising members and the founders have handled all of this vitriol and hatred with such class… I mean, the things you could expose about people, you could be just posting their emails to the internet and letting them show their asses online. You could be doing that-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Word by the way. 100%, we could be. Yes.
Liz LeClair:
You could be doing that, but you're not, so I think that takes fortitude and it's hard on the head and I think I'm always ... I'm just so amazed and I guess learned a lot from all of you, as well every day because my first instinct would be like, "Here's my new website with all the shitty things people have written to me-"
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I mean, I'm not going to lie, we have been-
Liz LeClair:
I'm sure, there's temptation.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah, there's a small group of us that raised money for, did research around, built this content hub and in that group, once we launched this site and started getting, of course, lots of accolades, of course the accolades outweigh, I won't even say criticism because criticism is really different than like spewing hatred, right?
Liz LeClair:
Criticism is being too kind to what you've experienced. Yeah.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right. As we started receiving things, we thought about it and our group certainly has been divided at times around whether we air some of the things that we receive or whether we don't say anything, because it's not worth giving that person or those topics airtime.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Some of the fans of the pod and my colleagues, had questions to pass on to you, and here is one. How do you think fragility, and especially fragility coming from white women in our sector, can be combated? What's your experience of what works?
Liz LeClair:
Yeah. I mean, I think that kind of fragility is a symptom of lack of confidence. I really do, so I think ... and It also stems from privilege. For you to ... there's a quote and I'm trying to think of who. There was a recent report out in the UK. I think it's the Bond Group wrote it, around racism and fundraising and the quote on the front cover, it was something to do along the lines of ... and I apologize, I probably should have written this down as well. As the person who does harm, you don't get to decide how the person responds or how you've made them feel. The person who perpetrates the racial harm does not get to decide how the group that they've harmed feels and how they choose to respond to it. Then this idea that white people want to further regulate the response.
Liz LeClair:
I think if I was really to look at the core of this, the response to community centric fundraising to me is a lot of white people in the sector, I think that Fleur Larsen really articulates this beautifully, is like come to this with a sense of martyrdom. I could be doing all of these other things, but I've chosen to dedicate my life to fundraising where I'm not making the money I could be and I'm working these hours and well, first of all, no one asked you to.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
That's right. That's right. You chose it.
Liz LeClair:
So you need to get over yourself, including myself. You're choosing to do this because it makes you feel good about yourself, and you also get a sense of that from the people around you that think they admire you for doing this work. But I think their response to community centric is this deep sense of like, "Well, everything that I've built my image on, my identity is being deconstructed and holes are being poked in it." They're reacting to that and it's very personal for them, but then secondly, the fragility comes from this lack of confidence. It's this desire to control, to further control communities of color. This idea that you get to control the response. Well, guess what? No.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
You don't get to choose what's racist as a white person. You don't. That's going to probably end up as something that's going to piss people off, but you don't. As white people, we don't get to decide what's racist. We really don't. So I think the fragility for sure that's definitely ... so how do we combat it?
Liz LeClair:
I think the more we talk about it ... the more white people talk about it and the more that we acknowledge it, and having other white people call white people out on it, that's a piece that's missing for me right now.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yes.
Liz LeClair:
I think there's some more people starting to step into that space, but it'd be great to see more do it.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right, it seems like you need a boot camp.
Liz LeClair:
Well.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
For white women who want to step up, to call each other out.
Liz LeClair:
I think Fleur is doing that really well. I'm actually signed up for her-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Fleur is, she's amazing but there's just one Fleur.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
We need more folks. Fleur is ... for everyone listening, we're talking about Fleur Larsen of Fleur Larsen Facilitation. She's pretty incredible. We recorded an episode called White Women as Gatekeepers that you can find in season one of this podcast and yeah, she's pretty incredible. One of the things that I think we should be doing, when we're thinking about things like donor engagement is political education. Let's really connect the dots for our community around what the whole ecosystem looks like. Who is involved in this thing that we're trying to address? How many players do we have in our community? Who exists nationally on the scene? Are we really doing the thing that we want to be doing to serve our communities? Is our work effective? We should be having all of those conversations. We should be having them with our entire community.
Liz LeClair:
Yeah I mean, I have worked in organizations where donors threatened to remove funding or want to take away their funding because you are not doing exactly what they think should happen or they have some perspective on, especially around the political. It's ... they feel that you're somehow not aligning with their values and I'm always ... I think someone recently or fairly not that long ago wrote about me that it's ironic, that I am so vocal about all of this because I'm still in major gifts, and I still do this work and if it's so terrible, then why do I still do this work? Well, there's lots ... I think the thing that's missing that people aren't understanding about community centric or at least any of this dialogue around equity is that, we can talk about systems and we can talk about problems and problematic behavior and we can still work with people to come up with better solutions.
Liz LeClair:
And we can still say no. I think that's that scarcity mindset too, is this idea that one person can dictate what your organization does because they have wealth and how is that any different from anything else that they ... these individuals are so used to affecting or swaying people based on their political influence or their financial influence and I think you can still be in major gifts or working in this space, whatever we want to call it. I hate the term major gifts anyways, it's really ridiculous, and say no to people.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
It's okay, you can do both.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
You can.
Liz LeClair:
You can also take money from really wonderful people who want to do amazing things. Yes. There's not an if, and, it's not a but or it's more of a ... we can do fundraising with an equitable lens and still continue to do amazing work and I think you guys have got some great examples of how that's worked out.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I think we have a lot to explore in our sector, about what works for our individual organizations around that and what looks realistic for where we're at.
Liz LeClair:
Well, and I think that's the other thing people need to remember too, is every everybody's critique of things is their perspective or their vision. I think all of us that write or write things ... So we were starting at the beginning of this conversation, talking about an idea that I've been ... kind of just percolating in my brain and I have this perspective of a broken bowl. It's starting to crack, it's had so much pressure, so much ... It's this idea that it's like ... it has symbolic importance to the people that first bought it or had it or bought it or used it and gradually over time it’s kind of been worn away and worn at. They refuse ... almost like you refuse to see the cracks in it.
Liz LeClair:
Then a different person comes along and sees it for what it is but if they tell you that it's got a break in it or there's something wrong with it, that you're going to be offended, that they're saying that it's not worth anything. I think we've lost some perspective in this whole conversation. That critique of our sector is not about saying there's something completely wrong and that we need to throw it all away. I think it's more about acknowledging that there are some things that are needing to be fixed and every person who looks at it, is going to see it a little differently and you can take that feedback and do what you want with it. It doesn't mean that ... I don't know, maybe that's a bad analogy. I'm working this really crappy concept out in real time, but it just feels like people are so stuck on this idea that we have to preserve it the way it is.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
The donor centered approach because it's been effective to a degree, must be the way it continues on and I don't know if being effective and being impactful are the same thing.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Ooh I love that, That's a beautiful analogy. Thank you for that. I'll be thinking on that for a while.
Liz LeClair:
I don't know if it's a very good analogy.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Cracks in porcelain. I like it.
Liz LeClair:
The Japanese tradition of repairing bowls with gold. Making something that's been broken and fix ... or repairing it in a way that makes it more beautiful. Not just aesthetically but adds more value. I think some of that, to me, is where I've kind of been thinking like, how are we, why are we so stuck on thinking that it's broken and can't be fixed? Not that anything ... and everything is a journey. There's no one answer.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I find that so interesting. Thank you for sharing that.
Liz LeClair:
Well, I guess it's like this concept that it may have had value at one time and it still could, potentially but you're not the one that's going to get to define that moving forward. Once you're gone and things have changed, people continue to build on what you ... the foundations of what you brought to the table or they may completely change them. I don't know in 50 years, what our sector is going to look like. I don't even know if it'll be a sector, who knows? But I think if we're really challenging ourselves to do, think deeply about it then hopefully, it'll be different. I hope it will be. I hope there's a lot of people ... a lot less people that look like me in 50 years, a lot less. I really do.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I mean for that to happen in our sector, right, so many things would have to change, including the people that do look like you and me, and folks who have the most power in the structural hierarchies that we do have within many of our nonprofits need to be making better decisions, listening, really listening and process, then integrate a process and enact, make changes so that we can welcome folks into this sector. Going back to what you were saying about that conversation around sexual harassment and how it's too hard to someone making a comment at a conference, it's too hard to address it in our sector. You were saying for someone new to fundraising, walking into that room and hearing that, why would you want to join our profession? I think white supremacy works like that in our nonprofits as well.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I know so many people who enter in, so excited, on fire, can't wait, are excited about fundraising, get involved, start skill building, start getting experience in the sector but the way that they are treated or where the organization is at in their journey, which is often like haven't started looking or have just started looking … but especially white fragility is getting in the way of change. We are just watching so many people of color leave the profession. I hope you're right. I hope one day our field is more diverse and for that to happen, some significant changes need to really happen in our sector.
Liz LeClair:
I agree. Yeah, I totally agree with you and I've been called on that a number of times by people rightly to say just because we changed the way the sector looks, it doesn't mean, we've changed the way it operates and it's really about all the things you just said and I have to remember that again, this is the lens, that privilege that I came to the sector with. I am really excited about joining the board of AADO and working with Birgit and all of those individuals because I think they've been doing this work for a long time and not only I'm hoping I can help contribute, but I think I'm going to learn an awful lot about what I don't know, and then figure out how to take that knowledge and do something about it in whatever way I can.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Right and AADO ...
Liz LeClair:
The African American Development Officers. So that was founded by Birgit Burton, about 30 years ago, kind of just as a group that got together of fundraisers of color. They are now officially becoming their own nonprofit and a charity and they have over 3,000 members. And I was really honored to be asked by Birgit to join the board, to help them build their capacity and grow the message around the work they're doing. It's creating a community but also helping with recruitment. But also really getting organizations who hire fundraisers of color to not just do it as a token, kind of check the box, but these are the ways that you can ensure that people feel that they're part of the organization they're working with. And Birgit is just like ... and she's the chair elect for AFP and will be the first black woman to chair AFP Global.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Finally.
Liz LeClair:
Yeah, it's taken a while but she's an absolutely phenomenal person and just has a big heart and a big soul and I've learned so much from her the last couple of years as well. I would say, for me, the biggest, greatest gift I've received from all of this experience has been all the women of color that I've come to know and meet and become friends with, and I learn so much from every single day. I'm grateful for that. I really have so much gratitude.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Well, you got a fan club. There's a fan club of us.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
You are listening to The Ethical Rainmaker! I’m your host Michelle Shireen Muri and this episode is sponsored by our 47 Patreon supporters, by commnity-centricfundraising.org and by Freedom Conspiracy, a fundraising consulting collective. If you enjoy this podcast, you can inspire us to continue this beautiful series through your financial contribution on Patreon. Join us on any social platform to learn more! Did you know The Ethical Rainmaker is now accepting sponsors? If you want to find out how to get your name and work out to our ever expanding community of like minded listeners, drop us a line at at hello@theethicalrainmaker.com. We’d love to have you.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Some of your fans would love to ask questions. I don't know that I have permission to list names, so-
Liz LeClair:
Okay, you do whatever you need to do. Go for it.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
So one of our colleagues wrote the other day and told me about an issue. They said, “I cannot wait for that Liz LeClair episode. I literally had a colleague tell me I should make a move to major gifts, because he had some donors who could open up to a young pretty woman in ways they couldn't open up to him.”
Liz LeClair:
So my first response to that is, "Ew." That's such a professional and articulate response. Yeah, I mean, that makes my skin crawl because I've had that same conversation. The commodification of women, especially young women in our sector, but in particular and I think this is the best way of phrasing it, Ohio State University, there's two researchers there, Dr. Erynn Beaton and Dr. Megan LePere-Schloop and they've been doing research with AFP on the whole issue of sexual harassment. What they refer to it as is the sexualization or the sexual commodification of young fundraisers. When I said glorified prostitution, I know that I said it as a joke but there are times where this line of work has felt like that. It's the same as like ... there are moments where it's felt like, you know those restaurants you go to and they have all the waitresses, the young ones that all have to wear a black dress and the dress is really short?
Liz LeClair:
It's like a classed up version, basically of Hooters. I can respect Hooters for the simple fact that it's in the name, but I think it's almost worse when you dress it up differently and try to pretend it's not that. I think it's the same as like anything else, I'll take anyone who has an opinion and has at least sticks to it and kind of believes in it, but when you try and cover it in some kind of like veil of like pretense or whatever. This whole idea that we can send young women into these really vulnerable situations and use them not because they want to be sexualized but because they will be sexualized. To garner money is a glorified form of pimping your staff out. So whoever that individual is, should be ashamed of himself. Frankly, I mean, if she felt safe, I would report it but I mean, I know that's hard to do.
Liz LeClair:
I'm in a very different position in my life and it is very challenging to have those conversations but I mean shame on him for even insinuating that ... The researchers at Ohio State also sort of said to me, have you ever thought about the word grooming in reference to what happened to you with the donor over the four and a half years and I thought to myself, I thought that was a term only used for pedophiles and they said, well no, if you were being groomed and I've come to use that term now because that's what happened to your colleague as well, I'm sorry that happened to her.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
And I'm sorry that happened to you Liz.
Liz LeClair:
Well, I'm sorry that any of us have to go through that. It shouldn't be like that.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Also true. Yeah, no. Thanks for talking about that. I know several members of our group plus oned wanting to know: as a white woman, what do you see are the biggest ways in which white women are complicit or problematic in our sector?
Liz LeClair:
My God. Well, that's a long list.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I know.
Liz LeClair:
I think this concept of like what's appropriate. Again, like this whole idea of controlling, controlling what an office looks like, controlling the way people work, controlling how they look at work. It's about this idea of kind of making it in a way that makes them comfortable, maintains a norm that they're used to and this refusal to go outside of like ... out of their comfort zone. I think the biggest things are when receiving feedback, being defensive, especially when they're receiving feedback from people that they work with, people of color, BIPOC colleagues around something they've said or done and then crying. I mean, you can cry. I remember somebody asked me, they said, "Well, does that mean you can't get upset?" I'm like, "No, it's about the fact that you've done harm to somebody else and now you're crying and making them feel bad for you, doing something that caused harm."
Liz LeClair:
I think this whole concept that ... I think it stems from this idea of, like I said, never having dealt with any challenges in your life and having no concept of what it's like to navigate that. So when they get into a workplace, they're like in these little bubbles or they're coming into it with a real sense of martyrdom and then when someone tells them that something that they've done isn't perfect, they lose it and I think it's very Stepford Wife-ish. Yeah, I'd say that's probably the ... I think kind of the tone you set in the office by how you react to feedback is a big part of it. I was just telling you, I think before we started the podcast, I've been dealing with a lot of sort of boomer generation women, who in spite of the fact that they also have their own challenges that they've gone through in their careers, refuse to accept that maybe they don't know everything about what the struggles are for people these days, or wanting you to stick to those script.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah.
Liz LeClair:
There's a script, and there's a way that we operate that you have to work within, you can't possibly change. That's more insidious to me than outright racism.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I mean, if I can add to it, even though the question is for you.
Liz LeClair:
No, you go ahead.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Along with the ... when we're thinking about like white feminism, and the boomer generation or maybe not just white feminism, but the boomer generation and feminism, I think rubber stamping each other's, whatever, initiative, opinion, et cetera. Partly because there was this idea of we must band together. I'm going to stand behind anything that you're going to say and there's something so beautiful and powerful about that, right? But it becomes less beautiful and still powerful when it's done without consideration for exactly what you're talking about, like maybe you don't know everything, like maybe we need to be taking a deeper look into what is actually a problem now or maybe there are more nuances here, maybe there's a new analysis to be had.
Liz LeClair:
Yeah, I mean-
Michelle Shireen Muri:
We knew what we knew 30 years ago, 30 years ago, but there's new information now, no matter who you are.
Liz LeClair:
Yeah, absolutely. I think I just get super frustrated by it because to me, white feminism is not feminism. If you're leaving anyone behind, feminism was never supposed to leave anyone behind and we've clearly have not done a great job of opening doors for everyone, or we have forged ahead and forgotten to leave the door open for everyone or we purposely closed it because it meant that there was just more room for us in the C-suite and I think that in itself is a disservice to everyone.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Thank you. Here's another question from multiple people, which CCF principle most resonates with you?
Liz LeClair:
Oh, I feel like I'm in a quiz.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I mean, you can look at them.
Liz LeClair:
No, no, no. I mean, the first one for me really is the most important. I think the overarching principle of looking at things through the lens of equity first, for me, speaks volumes. An dthe reason I say that is because in my work ... so we talked about the National Day of Conversation, in my work on that to try and bring that forward that was a lot of volunteers and I was like, "Okay, sexual harassment, half the population deals ..." or at least we know that ... we were saying at that time, 25% of women in fundraising have experienced this. We now know based on new statistics about 78% of women in the sector have had some form of sexual harassment. I'm like, "Okay, well, at least three quarters of women in the sector are going to want to deal with this." And I couldn't figure out for the life of me, why we had an all white volunteer committee.
Liz LeClair:
Except for one woman who's phenomenal, Shanaaz Gokool, and she's a former CEO of Dying With Dignity Canada and she was fired for asking for what she should have been paid as a CEO compared to her white counterparts. She's been in an ongoing legal battle around that. Shanaaz was kind enough to call me in and pull me aside and said, "You know, this battle or this ... not battle, this thing you're trying to do is important, but it is one lens of the bigger equity piece, and you're missing so much by having this conversation focused on this one thing." It really took for her to have that conversation with me to go, "Holy crap, I am not doing a good job of making this equity focused." I have taken a very specific form of oppression that, frankly ... this is going to probably upset some people…
Liz LeClair:
If the one thing that you're dealing with his gender discrimination, then you ... in itself, fundamentally, if that's the only thing you've had to deal with because you're a white woman, that's a privilege that you have.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yes.
Liz LeClair:
And so Shanaaz very kindly sort of talked me through it and explained things to me and I think she was really nervous about having that conversation with me, and I was like, "God, like, thank you." I didn't know that I ... I really had no idea and I think that that principle, the first principle of looking at everything with equity and race, as part of the dialogue is such a fundamentally important thing and it's something I'm trying to keep top of mind, every day when I do the work I do, both in my actual job and then, any of the the writing I'm doing is like, what are the things that I'm missing? What are the things that I don't know about, because it creates a more holistic approach to any of the work we're doing. We can't do it perfectly and we can't always do it right, but we can try. That's probably the one I most aligned myself with at this point.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I love it. Yeah. I often think of principle one as the principle to look at all CCF work through, anytime we're going to talk about being community centered, we need to use that lens of racial equity and justice and really think about what we're doing. Thank you for that example.
Liz LeClair:
Well, and justice, that's the other piece, right? Just because something is the way it is, doesn't mean it's just. Just because it's law, does not mean it's just. Just because it's how it's always been, does not mean it's just. Yeah. I love the principles. I think they're all fantastic but I think the one I go back to is one because it reminds me of why this is hard for me, is because I haven't had to worry about it for most of my life or I haven't had to think about it.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah, well, two more questions. What are your thoughts on CCF as a values based movement and what do you think will be hardest for our sector to adjust to?
Liz LeClair:
So I think before we went live, we were talking about how far and wide the CCF movement has spread, and how many people have embraced this concept when you think about ... I think I've learned over the time that I've known you, how you guys really formed this with an idea of it was something that you all knew that you felt that was needed but you weren't sure how it would be picked up. And I think the authenticity and the passion with which it was formed has obviously translated and has been something people have been ... had an appetite for, because it has spread like wildfire, and I think the fear you're seeing in the sector is a fear of irrelevancy or a fear that ... because our associations and organizations have moved so slowly to take up this idea of justice and equity and racial equity, that very quickly something else is coming sort of to replace it.
Liz LeClair:
And I think that's the fear you're seeing and that's the backlash you're seeing. So I think the biggest thing that CCF is going to contend with in the years to come is really people being afraid of what it means. Because I think it's dismantling a whole set of values and ideas that people have lived with their whole lives. To go back to my terrible analogy of that that bowl.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I like it.
Liz LeClair:
I think that people have held on to this concept for so long, thinking that well, it might be a little outdated and kind of ... we're not as progressive as maybe sometimes the private sector is, but we're doing this the best we can and then, all of a sudden, here you guys come, for a lot of people it felt like out of the blue, with this really amazing, well formed beautiful statement and the principles around what you wanted to see happen, and it really clearly has resonated with so many people. I think you have a lot of people who are very jealous. I think that there's a lot of jealousy out there. I think there's a lot of fear and I think every time that you have that happen to you, I think that you have to remember it's coming from the fact that it's true, that it's true that what you're saying is resonating with people.
Liz LeClair:
People are always afraid to lose power or give up power, and I think that's the fear you're seeing. So as a movement itself, I think it's brilliant. I mean, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I didn't really believe in it, and I learned from all of you all the time and I'm grateful that you all did this because I think I've ... it's completely reshaped my perspective of the work I'm doing and what purpose I want to serve. And I am so grateful, because I felt like I was going through the motions and it's almost like revitalized or regenerated me and giving me more hope.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I have one last question for you, and that's the question that I like to ask all of our guests, which is, from the time that you were born until now, there have been so many things that have shaped you and shaped your life and shaped your perspective. Of those things, what is it in your background, or your life experience that you think has shaped you to be who you are in this moment?
Liz LeClair:
Oh wow, you know, it's ... very young. I was in my late teens when I was diagnosed with, what we thought at the time, until it was actually fully diagnosed, we thought I had a bone tumor in my leg. They were worried it was sarcoma and it actually turned out to be benign, but I had to have surgery and have it removed. And what I thought was going to be one surgery, one and done, turned into 11 years of bone infection in and out of hospitals, IV, antibiotics. In and out of clinics. At one point being told that they might have to amputate my leg. And I think in some ways, all of that has given me a very sharp perspective on how short, fragile life can be. How quickly we can lose our abilities and have things taken away from us. How much I had to depend on other people to help me out at a very young age.
Liz LeClair:
I mean, I spent my first two years at university, needing people to help me get in and out of a bathtub because I had a cast on my leg. I'm grateful for that experience. It was one of the worst but one of the best experiences I ever had. And I remember probably about three quarters of the way through it, I had my like third relapse and I was going into my fifth surgery. And I was very depressed. I had lost a lot of weight. I looked almost anorexic at that point. I was miserable and I remember my mom saying to me, "You have a choice of what kind of life you want to live. Do you want to be the girl who has this bone infection in her leg or do you want to be the person that is living a life and happens to have this as something she's dealing with," because it became my identity for a long time and I am so grateful for her for what she said to me. And I'm also grateful for the experience because I think it has given me so much more compassion and empathy for people who struggle… and to know what it means to have to ask for help.
Liz LeClair:
I have to ask for help a lot, and I had to do it early in my life, and I think that's given me some of the ability to have empathy and understanding, and to also know when I'm wrong. That I feel like what I'm watching people struggle with is not having knowledge of when to say, "Okay, I need help understanding. I don't get this." I had to do that at an early age. So for me, that's been one of the most formative experiences of my life. That for me was about choosing what my identity was and I chose to do something other than wallow in it and I've always been since then a bit of a fighter, and I think that some of what, you kind of see come out in me when I need to draw deep. And I can go for a long time if I have to because I've had to struggle through that for over ... Chronic illness is so much worse than acute because it becomes part of who you are.
Liz LeClair:
But again, I'm living a good life. I'm healthy and happy, and I'm surrounded by amazing people as well. So very fortunate and very privileged to have gone through that with someone, especially a mother who was going to go to bat for me. So I would say that and then of course my stepsons. I didn't give birth to them but man, have they taught me a lot in the short time I've known them, in the last eight years. Their ... everyday remind me of how old I am and how quickly I'm becoming, how quickly I'm becoming irrelevant every day. And I love it. I love that they keep my feet to the fire and they're great. They're awesome. My husband is okay too. He's okay. If he's listening to this, he's okay too.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Well, it's been an honor to talk to you. I know that as I talked to other folks, like I mentioned, I just spoke with Mallory Mitchell on INSTAlive recently. I know you've connected with Fleur Larsen since our podcast. So many people ... my whole CCF founding group was excited that we were talking today. There are so many people that are excited to hear your voice and for whom I believe you're doing a lot of healing work by being who you are and standing up for the things that you believe in, and by being one of the voices out there, and especially the voice of a white woman who when so many other white women in our sector, and especially some of the big names in our sector are fully silent, you are there and you are going to bat and advocating, and providing a lot of healing and that experience for so many of us.
Liz LeClair:
Well, I appreciate that.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
Yeah, well for that and also for all that you've done around building a national day of conversation around sexual harassment in Canada, hopefully, we can bring that to the US. For all the writing that you're about to do for the charity report, for all the writing that you have already done, for every time you go to bat, on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on all of the social platforms and for what must be ... for all the work that you're doing in our official communities too, thank you so much for all that you're doing, especially as someone who has also been through so much. Thank you for all the advocacy that you're doing and for being on the Ethical Rainmaker.
Liz LeClair:
Well, thank you for this podcast and I'm going to say this and I hope that you guys keep this in. The one thing that I know to be true is that this podcast, for me, has been one of the bright lights over the last couple years and you're an excellent, excellent interviewer and you clearly put a lot of thought into this and you do such a great job of drawing out the narrative that needs to be heard so, so much gratitude to you and everybody who contributes to the Content Hub and Stacy and to the founding members. You're all an inspiration to me as well, so mutual admiration society.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
I love it. Thank you so much. That means a lot to me, Liz. Thank you. Thank you. That's it for the Ethical Rainmaker.
Michelle Shireen Muri:
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